Nothing like taking a big load of slugs in your guts! The first cop has a big hard gut, which swells even bigger as the bullets drill into it. The second cop has a smaller, softer little beerbelly, which quivers as each bullet punches into it, in a tight grouping right around his navel. He'll clutch that soft bloody bellyflesh tightly between his fingers as he drops to his knees, then flops forward as he kisses the dirt.
Derek, you and Tattoo would have been great playing the cops here. I can just see it all so clearly in my mind's eye. You both did similar clips over the years. Of course, nothing can equal the clip you both did where he stabbed you as you filled his belly with lead and died on top of you. So fucking hot!
Great description, Derek! It's only right that the thug aim right for their bellies, whether it be a big, round, vulnerable belly or a smaller pot.. those bullets were made for shredding guts!
Dino, Ashe...if I were to cast this as a movie fro my guys, the first guy would definitely be Big Scott...I had actually filmed several scenes of him getting his big hairy belly pumped, and he seemed to especially enjoy getting a gut-full of slugs right around his deep-set navel. He would push and surge his belly out as if to try to eject the slugs with his heaving belly muscles. The second guy would have to be Pizza Guy, as after he got married he put on quite a few pounds. He was still lanky and generally skinny, but now he had a bulging little pot belly, and it was very soft. I can see the slugs ripping through that thin white shirt, each slug punching a hole in his soft bellyflesh making it ripple and quiver, with a last slug driving him to orgasm as it knifes through his tie and right through his navel, drilling through his guts to his spine. He'd stand there for a moment, shuddering, as his pulsing cock sprayed a hot load over his lower gut, then drops to his knees and falls forward, his blood-and-cum-spattered belly grinding against the ground.
Love it! "Gotcha covered" don't mean a thing to a fit guy with his gun already pointed at his pot. At least neither man died with an empty belly. Haha. They had just stuffed those ample bellies full of chow and cold beer when they got desert served to 'em about navel high. Fuckin' hot, Ashe! The first guy got it right through his leather shirt and his buddy got a few holes right in his necktie and stretched-out white shirt. "UUhhhhhh, ya got me in my belly". The killer is cuming in his jeans, too, as he fills both men with hot lead. I can see the shirt-and-tie man falling belly-first on top of his partner's aching gut, both of them groaning one last time as their bellies slap together.
Thanks, Dino, that's a wonderful scene ending! I can imagine the killers excitement as he watches both men twitch and groan as their bellies are loaded up with more and more hot lead!
Without exception, every guy I have ever discussed shooting scenes with has embraced the idea of a bellyful of lead with enthusiasm. Whether describing themselves or someone else getting it, the idea of getting riddled right in the belly in the navel area always goes over well. It seems every guy, whether big-bellied or muscular or skinny, has imagined it on themselves. Some like the idea of a quick blast of auto fire ripping into their guts, while others prefer getting pumped one slug at a time, but all in that same area.
Same here, Derek. I wish I had done what you did and had them open up about all the gut shots and belly stabs. I've known a few guys at work who have reacted well to some scene I described to them, two or three of them exceptionally well, but you had long discussions with your actors. Thanks for sharing them with us, by the way.
In this particular scenario idea, I have over the years had at least a dozen guys either pull up or unbutton or remove their shirts, without any prodding on my part, to demonstrate for me exactly how and where they'd take a bellyful of lead. The challenge for me was keeping a poker face, showing only a clinical interest! Many of these were guys I never had a chance to film with, so I only have the memories. It's fun recalling them poking at their bellies with their fingers, demonstrating the order they would take the shots. My favorite was a guy in college, a redhead ROTC student with a beautifully muscled alabaster physique. He was so nicely cut, and had one of those college six-pack beerbellies with just a slight bulge, but nice cuts. He was wearing only a tight pair of gym shorts. He showed the arrangement of shots he would take in those hard bulging muscles. Having taken about 7 rounds in his belly, he was back against a wall, clutching his riddled belly, and slid down to a sitting position, then explained how he would finish up by taking a line of slugs running straight down from his bellybutton, into his hard lower gut, and finishing with rounds in his cockhead, shaft, and balls. I can still visualize it like it was last night.
Yeah, that was a tough one, especially the last five bullets, watching him poke himself in the navel, gut, dick and balls (and in his tight gym shorts, his sizeable cock was obviously pointing straight up). Watching him fondling his package very explicitly made it hard to keep a straight face.
If he got an erection, Derek, I couldn't have been held responsible for my actions. Hehe. Sexy guys talking about getting stabbed or shot in the belly is a good way to get me majorly turned on.
That was back in the day when we all wore tight bikini briefs under our gym shorts, so we always seemed to have an erection! Whether stiff or not, we were always positioned standing at attention.
I also noted that he thought up his scenario using a Walther PPK, a .32 caliber gun favored by James Bond. A .32 slug is good for close action shooting, leaves a nice navel-sized bullet hole and doesn't spread..it just punches a neat hole in your belly and lodges in your guts. Perfect for close range target shooting. Like I said, this guy was ROTC and knew all about guns, so he had thought about it. Taking five rounds in your belly would be painful, but wouldn't blow your guts apart. A very accurate gun for putting a bullet cleanly through a bellybutton or a dickhead without making a huge mess. I have fired a Walther and it's a great gun. Incidentally, I did a check and the gun holds 10 rounds, so it would have been five in the belly, and five more from the navel to the balls.
I know very little about guns, myself, but I do know enough about them to know that Hollywood often gets it wrong. One slug in the belly causes Hollywood victims to die instantly, or very near it. Absurd. And size does not matter, only where the slugs enter the belly, so a man who's skinny or big and ball-bellied are on equal ground. It is very possible for a man like your ROTC student could very well eat ten or even twelve slugs before "checking out", as long as the vitals were not struck. Of course, the caliber plays a part in it all. My Max would insist that he could take six slugs pointblank right in his bellybutton before dying, and he was no doubt right about that.
I still have a tape of a phone conversation with one of my boys...he called me late one night very excited. We had just had a long discussion the day before about shootings and how they are played in movies and TV shows, and he was nearly hysterical because he had just seen an example on TV: "This guy was arguing with this other guy, and he pulled out a gun, and just shot him, right, right, right in the belly, and he grabbed his belly and went "Ughhh!!!" and just died instantly! It was ridiculous!" "Where'd he get him?" "Right square in his belly, like right in his bellybutton!"
Caliber does indeed play a part as well; I remember Pizza Boy, when describing himself getting shot repeatedly, would always suggest a .22 pistol: "It's small, but getting shot in the guts with it would hurt like a bitch". Most of the scene ideas he came up with were close up or point blank, and he loved taking small caliber slugs because he felt he could take a lot of hits before dying. Pizza was big on taking a bellyful, but he would also describe taking shots to the nipples, as well as in his dick, which he felt would get hard from the sensation of the other bullets penetrating him. He'd usually finish with a slug to the navel, then one through his hard dick. The only time he ever described getting it with larger bullets was being machine-gunned, or his fave scenario of getting bayoneted in the belly, getting an erection, then getting bayoneted and shot through his dick into his guts. Longhair was one of the few guys I filmed with who preferred the concept of taking big slugs. He often talked about wanting to get "a .44 caliber bellyache!", taking three or more big slugs in his guts around his navel. ROTC boy's scene idea had him taking around 5 in the belly before he slid down the wall in a sitting position...then he would take the finishing slugs in navel, gut, cockhead, cockshaft and balls in quick succession, which was believable.
Yeah, the only part of the belly/gut that would be vital in any man, skinny or big, would be the aorta. If one of the slugs severed the aorta, his chances of survival would be close to zero. I had a doctor tell me that if a man were to have his aorta severed or even nicked while unconscious and prepped for surgery he would doubtless die on the operating table, as the heart would simply pump the blood into the abdominal cavity.....within a minute, or less, the man would be dead. I remember seeing an old episode of Gunsmoke in which a handsome young kid got shot in the belly, probably right in the navel. Doc took one look at the wound and knew immediately that the kid wasn't going to make it...and he died right after that.
Right, but in this case my guy was saying the guy died instantly, from a belly shot, as if hit in the heart! Even an aorta hit takes about a minute to bleed out. We used to discuss the aorta, as a straight thrust in the navel area would likely get it. Interestingly, if you go down about 4-5 inches, you can stab straight into the guts and miss any major blood vessels, as the aorta splits into the illiac arteries that run to the legs just under the navel. Several of my guys liked taking or giving hits (spear, knife, arrow, sword or gun) right in the guts halfway between navel and cock, because it would be painful and dramatic, but not quickly fatal. "Ahhhh! Ya got me right in the guts!" That was the sweet spot to take it for The Swede, Big Red, Tattoo Guy, Babyface and Big Scott. Getting even more specific, Longhair, who was really into swordplay (he was a frequent medieval fair performer) said this was his favorite stab idea, especially for a shortsword, which he demonstrated on me several times: in close quarters, an upthrust right in the low guts about 4-5 inches below the navel at a steep upward angle, sinking the blade in about 8-10 inches. Get ahold of your victim then, and lever the weapon upwards until it is almost straight in...externally the blade would now be jutting out right at the navel. Inside, the blade would have split up through the guts, and right up through the bottom of the aorta where it splits, causing a huge spurt of blood out of the guts. So what you get as a performance is the dramatic reaction to the relatively non-fatal but painful stab up into the guts, then a dramatic finish as you rip up to his navel, splitting the aorta for a massive blood spray and quick kill.
Of course, in our world, fantasy is the key, rather than reality, so I love long, drawn-out scenes in which the victims die slowly after getting multiple gun shots or stabbings. Unfortunately, Hollywood probably realized that such things could be sexual, so they refrained from extending the scenes. Your videos were (and are) a revelation, in that sense.
Exactly...none of us really wants to see what this stuff would look like in real life. I'm not a big fan of excessive gore, and have to turn away during surgery scenes on medical shows. The fantasy is a romanticized, idealized version of how these scenes SHOULD look (and feel). In talking and filming with my guys, the idea I stressed was always imagining how scenes should be played using imagination, without the limitations of Hollywood moviemaking and censorship. A guy who gets shot in the belly with an arrow shouldn't instantly drop dead; he should stagger around a bit, clutch his belly, and play the agony out before he expires. I would show my guys scenes from both martial arts films and peplum epics...the Asians and Italians seemed to have a broader style of playing out death, largely due to their acting styles being so heavily influenced by opera (and typically they featured belly or gut shots, not quick chest hits). They picked up on it quite naturally, as I always framed it as play-acting, like we did as kids when playing army guys or cowboys and Indians. A few actually did pick up on the sexualized aspect of it, and understood the concept of a death orgasm...it simply made for better scenes, as I always advised them to create what would be called in theatre a "button" on a scene...that moment that indicates the character has died...a last convulsion or shudder or other sort of death throe. But I never steered my actors towards realism, always fantasy, and they responded quite instinctively.
So true. A perfect example of what you're saying is a scene from an old TV movie called Goliath Awaits (1981). I was at home from work sick and had nothing better to do but watch this silly show about a World War 2 ocean liner that gets sunk by the Nazis...and miraculously, many of the people aboard the ship survive, even grow old until they are rescued by modern-day divers. I'm so glad I watched it, for one reason....Frank Gorshin. I was always attracted to him (when he was younger) and although they aged him in the film, he was still quite sexy. Ultimately, he gets shot in the belly and his death scene was superb (although I would have extended it even more, because I'm sick like that..haha). The director must have turned Gorshin loose by telling him to "give us your best Jimmy Cagney, Frank", as Gorshin played his death scene over-the-top. It was way hot, despite the fact that Gorshin was well into his late forties by then. I recall thinking that it would have been a fabulous scene had he done it when he was in his twenties, but I still loved it.
The old Chang Cheh Kung-fu movies were also done "over-the-top", making them the sexual delight they are, Derek, and you are so right about the musical/opera connections, as he was really into such things. I hate opera and most musicals, but I sure like the over-the-top dying scenes he created.
I got to meet Gorshin at a con in the 90s; he was a favorite in our house because he went to the same high school as my Dad. The Shaw Bros. movies are loaded with great over the top stuff...I used to share those with Pizza Boy, Army Guy and Smooth Guy. Great scenes with multiple arrows in the belly, spears in the guts...there's even one I have here somewhere where a guy gets it right in the dick with a sword! Lotsa really fetishy execution scenes too, with barechested guys tied with ropes to poles getting arrowed, speared or knifed, all played with orgasmic abandon. And my favorites were the ones like DUEL OF THE IRON FIST, where the two heroes kill everyone, then die at the end themselves together from their fight injuries...in this case, the one guy had a spear rammed through his back and out his belly, and the barechested guy has a big dagger in his guts. Slow, dramatic belly deaths shared are very hot. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nKFAe68hoKc/hqdefault.jpg
Yeah, Gorshin was a natural at over-the-top acting, especially given his long career at doing impersonations. I suspect that most of his directors were forced to have him back off from his acting style. Haha.
Duel Of The Iron Fist was my favorite film by Chang Che! It was such a shock to see the two leads die, as that was not the norm in American films. Although neither is shown dead, their deaths are implied, and Chang Cheh managed to create an orgy around the two dying hunks. God, it was so hot! He obviously encouraged his actors to over-do it, and all seemed to really get into it. He was like a Chinese version of Derek. LOL
You'll see more bare-belly stabs, shots, arrows and spears in Shaw Bros. films than anywhere else. And 90% of the hits are belly shots as opposed to chest hits. One of my favorites is NAVAL COMMANDOS, which is loaded with shirtless belly gunshots, knife stabs, and especially unusual, bayonets to bare bellies. There are a couple of scenes where a bare-chested guy gets 2 or 3 bayonets in his belly at the same time. Great stuff!
Yep, ole Chang Cheh was definitely "one of us". Were he still alive today, he would no doubt be a member of the "clan". He seemed to search for new ways to give it to his stars in their bellies. I have about fifty of his films on DVD, and I wish I had the ability to edit them together into a long belly stabbing/shooting scene. In one of them he actually combined a sword which fired "bullets" out of the end of the blade. So hot! In another favorite, he had one of his shirtless actors dive into a pillbox where two enemy soldiers were brandishing a machine gun. The kid got a bellyful of lead from the machine gun, but still managed to slay the two enemy soldiers before dying. He loved men sacrificing their own lives for their country and fellow comrades. I can only assume that it turned him on, as it certainly turns us on. In another favorite, a man singlehandedly destroys an entire syndicate of gangsters, (at least a hundred men....and I'm not exaggerating) before he gets a blade shoved into his naked belly and is forced to give it up. His buddies slay the last remaining gangster (who had just killed the man). Honor to the death is what Chang Cheh loved, and so do I. He was one of the first writer/directors who introduced "killer females" to the screen....beautiful, seductive women who seduced young, handsome males, so she could stab them in their bellies, and watch them die in agony. There will never be another like him, I suspect.
This genre, where the heroes take a lot of damage but still defeat the enemies before dying, is known in Hong Kong as "Heroic Bloodshed". A spin-ff of that is the films of John Woo in the 80s. You're right, he was the king having actors get it in the belly...until I came along!
Great line in “ Duel of the Iron Fist”: “ How many times do I have to tell you, ya gotta aim for the belly”””... kind of our credo. Lol. If only the guys’s navels showed more.
Part of rhe first big fight when the white shirt guys are all killed. The hero instrucys his somewhat dopey sidekick and rhen finishes off a wounded white shirt baddie.
Hah! My version is subbed, and in the subbed version he stabs a lot of guys across the throat, then says "How many times have I told you NOT to stab the belly? Even if you disembowel him, he might not necessarily die!"
My favorite line from the movie is the one where the young friend of the main star gets a cane pole shoved through his guts, from behind. The star slays the enemies and rushes to his young friend. As he lifts the teenager up, his cute buddy mumbles something about "if I had listened to you I would still have my belly", which in our terms is simply strange. It's an obvious example of bad dubbing....maybe even spoken words that don't translate well into English.
OK, my subs stop halfway through the film, I will have to find another set. BUT...turns out my copy has a dub track as well! In the first scene, at around 12:15, the guy says to his young friend "How many times do I have to tell you? You aim for the belly and chances are you won't kill the man! You've got to aim high, see?" In the second scene, at 1:35, where the young guy gets the bamboo through his back and out his guts, on my dub print he says "It's all my own fault, I didn't listen to you...I still aim at the belly, you know that?" then he dies. I suspect there are several different dubs floating around.
Yes, after my own “investigation “ of the version I have Derek is right. His young friend no doubt like us has been excited by the sight of all those bare bellies ( if not the navels) of the white coat gang and understandably went for the belly. Like a y normal young man wants to kill them of course but his older friend advises to aim higher since the main concern to kill all the men whom they fight. Efficient ? But hardly fun ;-)
Last night I found some videotape of a shirtless Smooth Guy discussing some scenes and we found a photo of one guy with a bit of a belly and Smooth really went to town on him, explaining in graphic detail how he would pump that big belly full of lead. Smooth pointed out where each shot would go, and then grabbed his own belly and jiggled it to demonstrate how it would move on the impacts. Pretty much exactly like Ashe's illustration.
Boy, I would have loved seeing and hearing that discussion, especially since he was one of my all time favorites, Derek. That no doubt gave you a woody. It sure would do that to me. Haha. Even when he gained a bit of a beer belly, he remained so hot and belly-centered. He would have been perfect as the second cop in Ashe's drawing.
The very first scene I ever filmed with Smooth Guy had The Kid running up to him, shoving a pistol in his belly and pumping five slugs into him...he grabbed at it and growled "aw, right in the guts! I knew right then I was going to love working with him. He loved any kind of belly hit, including navel shots, and loved talking about them. And when he'd take a bellyful himself, he'd always groan and strain and push out and heave his belly orgasmically. He was great.
I remember that scene so well, Derek. I can always tell when a guy is a natural and he was obviously that. You should have edited an entire video of his scenes, like you did with Xavier.
Speaking of police shooting, I ran across a tape last night, must be 25 years old, of a phone conversation I had with a guy I don't even remember. He gave me a very graphic description of a great scene he had seen: "The villain goes to this guy's apartment...the guy's a cop, see, and the cop doesn't know this guy is the bad guy...he opens the door and lets him in. He's just woken up, he's wearing shorts, you know, briefs, and no shirt on...he's pretty built, he's got a big chest, good pecs and that kinda belly with the cuts, you know, a six-pack. They're talking, and the bad guy pulls out a .45 auto. The cop turns around, and the guy grabs him and shoves the barrel of the gun right in his gut, right in his navel. You see the cop's eyes go wide as he feels it. They show a close-up of the gun in the guy's navel, the cop's pretty muscular and you see his belly flex up as the guy shoves the gun in harder, and his eyes go wider, then boom! And you see a blood splatter hit the wall out his back. And the cop kinda shakes as the guy drops him, then we see him on the floor with a big ol' bloody hole where his bellybutton used to be. Then you see the villain leave, and the guy on the floor is holding his belly with blood gushing through his fingers and outta his mouth. But he's dead...he took a .45 bullet right in his bellybutton and it went clear through his guts and out his back. And you really feel it watching it, at least I did. That's the only time I ever saw a guy get it where you knew for sure he was getting shot right in the bellybutton." He went on a little longer talking about the scene, it had clearly made quite an impression on him, in the sense that it was one of those scenes where watching it you really felt it. He even said his own belly tightened up when the gun got rammed in to the guy's navel. He didn't say so, but he was so excited about the scene it was clear to me that he was sorta turned on by it.
Sounds really hot, Derek. It's the type of movie scene we'd all want to see. That guy would have been right at home in our various sites, for sure. I've known co-workers who reacted as though they were turned on when I described such a scene to them. Thanks for sharing that with us. Hollywood always seems to avoid the navel as a target, and it's obviously because they don't have any balls. Haha
It was part of a long larger conversation discussing all sorts of shots; he described another favorite of his where he said he saw a bare-chested guy get strafed with a row of five slugs right across the pecs, from one nipple to the other. He seemed pretty aroused by that one too. When we got to the subject of navel hits, he said he had seen several good ones, especially in martial arts films...I remember one was in a rather well-known scene where a guy gets it in the belly with a dagger right in the navel, because that was the only spot where he was vulnerable. You've probably seen that one. He also described one where a guy slowly had a spear rammed through his navel, almost more as a torture than a kill (although the guy died); he remembered that one in detail because, like the guy getting it, he himself had a rather soft belly, and he could imagine the spear point poking into his navel, then his belly being pushed in as the shaft sank into his guts...he said he could really identify with that one. He also described a couple arrow-in-the-navel scenes, and a bayonet-in-the-navel But the gunshot scene was the only time he had ever seen that.
Yes, I own that Chang Cheh movie in which the guy gets stabbed in his navel, but unfortunately Cheh didn't do it right. You see the dagger at his bellybutton, but it is not shown entering it (unless it was edited out, for some reason). The film is called The Brave Archer (which is ironic since there no archery shown in the entire film). We know he's gotten it in his navel because he mentions the fact afterwards (I can't believe that you stabbed me in my navel). It is still a hot scene, and the "immortal" guy is hot as hell....and doesn't die right away. I just wish that Cheh had shown the blade enter and go the hilt in his bellybutton. One of my co-workers is like that guy, in that he likes all kinds of stabbing and shooting violence, but he seems to favor the belly as a target and gets stirred up every time I describe a scene from one of Chang Cheh's movies. He always grabs his belly and groans as though he's been shot or stabbed.....can't seem to help himself. Haha
The Shaw Bros. movies typically fudge on showing actual penetration of weapons, although there are some exceptions. Generally the actual thrust is barely shown, but they make up for it by showing the weapon stuck in, often on a bare belly, and generous spurts of blood. It's the thought that counts! Hits in Italian peplum films are much the same...they will cheat on showing the actual penetration, but make up for it with blood and generous overacting in response. They do, however, often use elaborate wirework for spear and arrow impacts, comparable to American Western films of the 50s and 60s.
Your comment made me think a bit about penetration, and all that suggests. The element that most guys seem to remember from a scene is whether or not you see (or at least seem to see) the weapon penetrate the target. All the guys I have ever talked to were much more enthusiastic about the scenes where they came away thinking they had seen the victim clearly pierced, punctured, stuck, stabbed, speared, skewered, run through, rammed, gigged, impaled or thrust with a weapon. Indeed their biggest complaint was usually when they felt they had been cheated on penetration in a shot. The biggest selling point I had when filming scenes with my guys was the use of special effects and props, as well as the staging, camera angles and acting, to create a convincing illusion of penetration. And in discussing what it would be like, my guys were very verbose in describing it: "I'd feel the cold steel of the dagger blade as it pierces into my belly; my belly muscles would tighten around the blade as it sinks in. As it sinks into my guts I'd feel a sharp hot pain, which spreads through my belly and down to my groin. I'd feel a punch in my belly as the hilt hits it, and my cock stiffens as pain radiates down through my guts. I look down and see the knife buried deep in my guts, and the handle jutting out of my quivering belly." - Pizza Boy "I'd feel the cold muzzle of the gun ram into my navel; my belly goes soft and folds around the barrel. I'd hear the gun go off, and feel hot slugs punch through my navel and rip deep into my guts. Each bullet pumping into my belly causes it to swell and quiver, as I feel the fire burning in my guts." - Babyface "He would ram the spear right into my bare gut, low, below my bellybutton. I'd grab at the shaft but would not be able to stop it as it plunges through my lower belly and drives deep into my guts. I would look down and see the wooden shaft sticking out of my gut under my navel, and feel the heavy metal spearhead drive clear through my guts and out my back and into the wall. The muscles in my belly would clench and convulse, and I would slump over, hanging helplessly by my guts on the spear as I die." - Xavier Those are a couple of examples, but you get the idea. All my guys wanted to pretend to experience their bellies being penetrated, and conscious or not, they clearly found the idea sexually arousing.
I had a buddy years ago who was stabbed deep in the belly, to the right of his bellybutton (almost reached his spine, as he was lean). He said he had no idea he'd been stabbed (thought the man had just gut-punched him) until another man told him that he was bleeding. It wasn't until he saw the blood on his white shirt that it dawned on him how serious it was. He was rushed to the hospital and survived. The brain blocks the "real knowledge", to combat shock, which can kill you. The pain seared through his belly as soon as he saw that he was stabbed. For our purposes, that doesn't work, of course. We need instant moaning and groaning. cringing and gasping. Haha. I don't have to see the penetration, naturally, but it does help. The sounds and action that follows is the best part for me.
Again, the technical reality has little to do with the fantasy. I have read many time of men being shot in the belly not knowing they had been shot. But where's the fun in that? Guys want to grab their bellies, clutch their wound, and make a damn show out of it!
Statistically, I would have to say you are correct. I never had a guy say he would prefer to get it in the chest, back or head. Without exception they would always say in the belly or in the guts. And I would guess 60-70% would say right in the navel, or at least in the navel area. Second would be maybe 20% saying they'd prefer it in the guts, below the navel and above the cock. Maybe 10% would say upper belly between navel and sternum.
That sounds about right to me, Derek. When brandishing my retractable play knife, every single guy took it in their hands and plugged the blade right into their belly, then groaned as if they had been stabbed. In most cases, they stabbed themselves in the navel area, too. It pretty much seems universal to me.....and strictly male, too. Women have zero interest in such things, and consider it silly.....or even bizarre behavior.
I always told my actors to pretend they were playing war back when they were 10 or 12...get in that mindset. At that age we all tried to play the hammiest deaths, and it always involved getting it in the belly. Nobody grabs their chest.
So true, Derek. My own experience and my then buds were the same: we always got it in the belly and played it over the top. There’d always be at least one or two of us that made sure it was in our bellybuttons too.
Yep, Gutsy. My buddies and I firmly believed that our bellies were a repository for hot lead and sharp objects.
Derek, over-the-top acting was always encouraged among us punks. Haha. We all hated to see guys get it and just fall dead. It was not at all dramatic....or sensual to us.
yes. It had to be sensual and dramatic. Hands clutching at the belly..or over the navel...staggering..squealing..belly thrust out as if full of hot lead..hot.
Another technique I would use to get good performances is to ask the guys to play the scene out in slow motion. Or sometimes we would just rehearse in slow motion, and I would "forget" to tell them to speed up on the actual takes.
Does anyone here remember James Franciscus getting riddled in BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES? It's an effective squib scene, pretty startling for its time. James was wearing a loincloth, with bandages running across his belly and at an angle up across his chest. The squibs were hidden under the bandages. Here's the fun part: every single guy have I ever discussed that scene with does NOT remember the bandages. Usually their description is something like this: "yeah, his gun jams and he gets a burst of slugs right in the guts, right around his bellybutton, then a second strafe from his right tit to his left shoulder." What always cracked me up is that they completely forget the bandages...because he's been bare-chested throughout the movie. They also tend to forget the shot in the forehead, which is actually the first shot, in closeup. I have also had a couple guys tell me that both bursts caught him in the belly, one across the navel and the second in the low guts just above his loincloth. I find it very interesting that these guys all imagined the scene as they wanted to see it, not as it actually was...they wanted to see that beautifully muscled six-pack belly get pumped full of lead! The following stills show the scene as it actually happened: he gets a shot in the head, then the burst across the belly, then the strafe up his chest. https://cdn.moviestillsdb.com/i/500x/lhgq0fh7/beneath-the-planet-of-the-apes-lg.jpg http://www.ie-commerce.net/library/850px/282/282361.jpg http://www.cinemaretro.com/uploads/franciscusapes.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bCnj1a-4PP8/hqdefault.jpg
Yeah, I remember the scene well. It always pissed me off that the director felt the need to cover up his belly for that final scene (but I understand why....the squibs). He was among the few blond actors who really got me turned on, and he was the best thing about that movie, given that he spent so much time topless in it. I certainly wished that he had been shot "only" in his naked belly, but it's just one of scores of misdirected scenes in films. Minus the head and chest shots, Franciscus could have grabbed his belly and died sensually, but no, it was not to happen.
What cracks me up about it is that most guys do not remember the bandages, they think they saw him take it in his bare belly, and a few though they saw him take a lot more slugs in his guts than he actually did. Wishful thinking. That rippling six-pack is such a perfect target, that in their minds' eyes that's how he took it. A bare bellyful!
Hahaha. I've lost count of the times I've done that, Derek. In my mind, I see entire scenes differently. It's odd, to say the least. Another thing about that scene is you'll notice that the bandage keeps changing (wider and covering more of his belly). In the second still, his bellybutton is clearly visible, but the next still shows it covered. If only it had been shot by you, Derek. LOL.
Actually it's the squibs firing that move the bandage...you can even see the metal backing sticking out under the bandage on the chest squib in the final shot. Our minds tend to fill in the blanks when watching movies. I have shown many of my guys that great scene from GIANT OF MARATHON where the nearly-naked guy in the water gets speared. They will swear to you they saw the spear plunge clear through his bare belly in the navel and go right out his back. But you don't...it just seems that way thanks to great editing, a great spear prop, and good sound fx. Another is the scene in the original FRIDAY THE 13TH when the boy goes down to the kitchen for a snack and ends up nailed to a door with a butcher knife in his bare belly. Except that's not actually what you see; but you think you do because his shirt is clearly unbuttoned before he gets it. https://bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/halloween-product-background.jpg A favorite of mine is in JASON TAKES MANHATTAN, the first scene on the boat, when Jim gets the speargun rammed into his bare belly. The shot is actually a trick shot: the speargun is already rammed hard into his belly, and is jerked out; the footage is then run backwards! Then he gives a wonderful orgasmic reaction. So you do see it, but it's a trick because it's a reverse shot. I wish I had had that capability in my videos! Here's a good video recap of the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=98&v=ErbkfAEmpxM
Derek, I believe that the scene from Friday The 13th is actually from the original Halloween. Ironically, in an interview, director John Carpenter claimed that the kid was stabbed in the chest, but that still proves otherwise, as he is clearly stabbed in the belly. I got quite a jolt when that scene took place. It's hot as hell.
Yes, sorry, I meant Halloween. And it's definitely in the belly, not the chest. However, I have always found it unlikely that a butcher knife in the belly would support that guy off the ground in an upright position. Maybe right under the sternum, yes, but not through a soft belly...he'd slump forward. The still makes it look like it's right above his navel. How'd you like the speargun in the guts scene from JASON/MANHATTAN?
Always loved that scene from Jason In Manhattan, Derek. I agree with you about that scene in Halloween. To me, it looks like he got it right in the bellybutton, but either way, there's no way the knife would have held him up like that. Too bad Carpenter didn't show the knife stuck in his naked belly. That would have been hot as hell. Ironic that a new Halloween just opened today, and I gather from the reviews, it's pretty good.
Most of the Friday the 13th films are disappointing, but I have a couple favorites. I was living in Hollywood when the first film came out, and saw the uncut version before the film was picked up by Paramount. Remember the guy seen hanging dead on the door of the generator room with arrows? In the original cut, you saw him take the arrow in the chest, then the one in the dick, then the throat, then his head slam back with the arrow in the eye. When the film was released by Paramount, the entire kill scene was cut and you just see him hanging on the door...and his throat has been cut as well. The flashback to when the counselors are macheted was much more graphic....the boy took it hard right in the belly, the girl in the throat. I had a talk with Tom Savini about The Final Chapter, which he did the f/x for. I told him my favorite kill was the scene in the lake where the shirtless boy is climbing out of the water onto the dock, and Jason rams him way down low in the guts (so low it might have caught his dick) with a speargun, and then picks him up in the air on it, then fires the gun sending the spear on up through his guts and belly. Then we have a longer shot of him hanging in the air on the speargun. Tom told me that was one of the first films where Paramount used computers to doctor a scene...they digitally airbrushed out the wires holding him in the air, and the scene was shot with lots of fog to make it easy to do that. Digital stuff was still very expensive and difficult in 1984.
Hey all! Sorry my site hasn't been updating much, I'm in the middle of a big move and haven't had much time to draw lately. I've been reading your comments when I get them, though, all so hot!
One issue I have always had in these discussions is terminology. The two words I have always found to be decidedly un-erotic are abdomen and stomach. The first because it sounds too medical, the latter because it is usually used incorrectly. So when I would talk with my guys I would first do my best to break them of using those words. I would suggest that abdomen was way too general, as it covers the entire area from the sternum to the cock. Stomach is also way too general a term to use describing the midsection, and it is inaccurate, as the actual stomach is tucked up under the ribs and only part of it extends down into the upper left quadrant of the abdomen. To keep things clear, I would use the target areas that I learned many years ago from medieval fair stunt performers: chest is from just under the nipples up to the collarbone. Belly extends from below the sternum to the navel. The gut, or guts, go from just below the navel to just above the cock. I have many times amused myself by having first-timers remove their shirts and pull their pants down a bit so I could actually show them the range of these areas, and point out how little of the stomach actually extends into the belly, so if they wanted to hit the stomach they specifically had to be hitting the upper left belly. Of course the most fun was pointing out the range of the guts, starting at the bellybutton and drawing down almost to the groin. If you pierce the bellybutton you are actually going into the upper guts, but it makes more sense to include the bellybutton as part of the belly...if someone gets punched in the belly you just naturally assume you are hitting in the navel area. I would clarify that the guts for the most part is the area where the lower abdomen curves back and down to the groin. So, to recap: Upper belly is the area relatively just below the sternum, and includes the stomach. Middle belly is the six-pack area. Lower belly is the navel area. Upper guts is the area just under the navel. Middle guts is the area halfway between navel and cock. Lower guts is the area just above the cock. By teaching this language to my guys, we were always clear on exactly what we were talking about when describing hits, and I was able to get them to use the language I preferred. It was also helpful to point out that the muscles in the belly are the flexors for bending over, while the gut muscles are more for support, holding the internal organs in place. Fun fact: if you are crucified, guess what kills you? Suffocation! After hanging for a while, the gut muscles become exhausted and lose tone. The weight of the organs in your guts and belly make it sag, pulling against the diaphragm, which makes the lungs unable to inflate, and you eventually suffocate! I used to demonstrate this to my guys while describing a scene you may remember from a peplum film from the 60s, the title of which I can't recall. There's a scene where there are some men crucified, and some Roman soldiers ride by on horseback. One of the crucified men begins insulting a young Roman officer, who is so enraged that he draws his sword and rams it up into the man's guts. The man gasps, gives a look of relief, and dies. An older officer the chides the young one who stabbed him, pointing out that he had been played, and had given the crucified man exactly what he wanted...a quick death!
Hahaha. You were quite cunning, Derek. It was the perfect way to have them expose the "canvas"....and even allowed you to touch it. Wish I had thought of that. I even pointed out to one guy (online friend) that the navel was nowhere near the stomach, and I think he was offended somewhat by being corrected. In his mind, the abdomen/belly/gut was all stomach. I agree with you that stomach is not a good term for the belly/gut, and abdomen is far too clinical to be sexy. The worst term for me was tummy. Only small kids have a tummy. By the teenage years, it has always been belly or gut for me.
That scene you describe is another version of what happened to Jesus on the cross, though taken to another level. I recall one like it used in the TV version of Spartacus (not the series), I think.
The result is that I noticed some guys would describe their hits based largely on what word they enjoyed saying more. I would say overall that belly was more popular for gunshots, and guts more for stabs and spears. For example, Smooth Guy really liked to say "right in the belly" when describing shooting scenes, leading to the ever-popular "pump him in the belly" and "bellyful of lead" descriptions. But for stabbing he definitely preferred "right in the guts"....usually "right in the guts...in the guts, just below the navel". For spears he would say "right in the belly, right in the bellybutton" on a guy with a nice build, but if the guy had a bulging belly he'd take a spear "right in the guts, man!" Blond Greek was surprisingly fetishy about it. On gunshots on himself he always wanted to take it "right in my belly...I think I could take a bellyful" but for stabs or spears he was very specific: "I'd take it right in the low guts, man...right above my cock." He seemed to differentiate between gunshots in his belly, which would feel more like punches, and stabs or spearings, where the effect was more of penetration, and he wanted to take that in his low guts. He had those low gut muscles that were defined in a V-shape, and he saw the low part of that V, just above his dick, as his most vulnerable area to be penetrated for the best reaction. I used to nearly faint when he'd pull down his pants almost to the pubic line, flex his gutmuscles, and punch with his fist into them to demonstrate a hit. He was also surprising cool about taking it right in the dick, once I explained the idea of the weapon pinning his cock upright against his guts. In Overkill he got stabbed, sworded and speared through his dick into his guts and played it great; and I can tell you from personal experience when we filmed (alone together) a scene of me stabbing him in the belly, tit, gut and dick that after about three takes he was rock-hard! He responded especially well when I'd stab his dick against his guts, then jerk the blade up a few times. Ah, those were the days!
Ahh, yes..really good memories, Derek and Dino! Love the "clinical" dissertation and the "zones". My buds and I never used "stomach". It was always "belly" and occasionally "gut". We meant it to include everything from the sternum down to where we'd decide to wear our pants or shorts..usually well below the bellybutton. In fact, the only variety would be the occasional use of "navel" instead of "bellybutton." I had two main "play war" buddies...it was basically belly kills all the time under various guises. "Jackie" was a darker skinned kid who'd either play an "Indian" (especially if he was wearing his bead chokers) or if we were at the beach or pool a "Jap". His mother was from Europe and let him wear pretty skimpy bathingsuits so his whole belly showed..he thought it made him look more "exotic" so foreign so liked the "Jap" persona. In the latter role it was often "spear gun" or knife "right in the belly button". "Chris" was a "Western character" all the way..loved being an "outlaw".. for him it was getting "plugged in the belly" that was his style.
Most of my experience was in college and beyond; I only had a couple of play experiences with guy friends in my teen years. One was with a buddy named Teddy, a tall, long-haired kid who I only saw very occasionally when his Mom came to visit my Mom...we would take off and play. This would have been about age 14-15. Ashe will appreciate that our play area was a big old barn full of hay and implements. If it was summer and time to play with Teddy, shirts came off immediately and off we went to the barn. Sometimes we just played getting shot while on piles of hay...we would grab our bellies and do elaborate falls from the top of the pile of hay bales. I remember many times we'd get shot, and fall, and end up one atop the other, belly-to-belly, sweaty, playing our our painful gut-deaths so we died simultaneously. I was a very average build; Teddy was taller than me and thin but with very defined pecs and a nicely cut skinny belly; usually his jeans cut him about 5 inches below his navel. I can still remember the feel of that taut belly heaving against my own as we pretended to be riddled together. I remember clutching his chest and fingering his nipples, and his navel of course! We would also pretend to knife each other; no props of course, we just pretended to have knives as we ground and twisted our fists into each other's bellies. Teddy would even pull his jeans down to his hips, so there was a big flat area of exposed gut to stab. He'd end up in a sitting position and just let me punch/stab him in the guts over and over until he was bruised...I'm sure I punched him in the dick a few times too! Since I was smaller than him, he liked to play sword-thrusting me in my belly, nearly picking me up on his fist as he rammed his "sword" through my guts and lifting me up. Since there were all sorts of old tools in the barn we often played spearing each other, using old tool handles, driving the blunt end into each other's guts. We also had an old pitchfork that had been made from a single piece of wood. It had smooth rounded ends on the three tines, so of course we had to play trident with it...sometimes horizontally with the middle tine going right in the navel on me or in Teddy across his guts as he folded over it...we'd drive it in as hard and far as we could without actually hurting each other. Teddy was especially enthusiastic about sticking things into my bellybutton and I didn't argue. Sometimes we'd get old tomato sticks (the green ones you'd tie vines to) and pretend they were arrows, stick them in our navels, and play long agonizing arrow-in-the-belly deaths together. But the best were scenes where we'd repeatedly stab each other, me getting it in the belly and he getting it in his long gut, and die on top of each other. If it was warm enough, we'd put on shorts and head down to the crick and play pirate movie, having swordfights with sticks or getting shot, ending up sprawled and dying on the smooth wet rocks.
Teddy sounds a lot like my buddy Max, who had a long, lean, flat body, built like a swimmer. On sleepovers at his place (his mother worked nights and she was a single mom), we talked about movie and TV shows that had impressed us....watched a few on TV together (and needless to say it was the action scenes that we liked most). I don't recall who instigated the first conversation, but it soon developed into a reenactment phase. Unfortunately, none of it lead to sex (we were just sixteen in the beginning), but I sure wanted it to, and looking back I believe he did, too. I was well-built at the time, but his belly was just plain gorgeous.....and the sight of it would nearly bring me to tears. Like Terry and Gutsy's Jackie, he liked to wear his jeans as low as possible on his hips, thereby exposing every inch of his belly. Whew! It kept me in a state of flux for sometime. Thankfully, he wasn't the least bit skittish about me touching his belly during our little role plays, and always preferred his "character" get shot right in his bellybutton. If I hadn't been so damned shy and scared, we probably would have had a lot more intimacy than we did. Regrets, I've had a few.
Teddy and I began playing around when we were 13-14, and there was nothing consciously sexual about it, but we definitely were exploring each other's shirtless bodies with our game-playing. By high school we had moved on and didn't see each other much anymore. But for 2 years or so we had a great time every few months. Aside from the play I recounted above, I remembered that the closest he came to looking really aroused in our play was a time when I had him on his back, with his body really stretched out, and I had my left hand on his chest, and with my right plunged my knife (fist) down as low as possible into his gut, just above his cock. He groaned and pushed his belly out, and I very, very slowly pulled the knife up through his guts, giving it an occasional twist. When I reached his navel I pushed my fist in as far as it would go, and he moaned appreciatively, tightening his belly and pushing it out against my fist, arching his back. Then I continued grinding the knife up through his belly through his six-pack, as his groans increased, until I reached his chest, stopping right between his nipples. He drew his hands in and clawed at his belly...I had slit his entire belly open from cock to sternum, ripping his guts completely open. As he groaned and clutched his belly, I drew the knife out, then plunged it hard into his heart, dropping my body on top of his, belly to belly. He shuddered and died a very orgasmic death. From the moment I had plunged my fist into his low gut and started pulling up, he instinctively understood what I was doing, and played along enthusiastically. When he recovered, it was my turn; we wrestled a bit, until he was in a sitting position, and he pulled me across his lap, and overhand plunged his "knife" (fist) very hard and deliberately into my belly at the navel, almost knocking the wind out of me. He repeated the stabs all over my belly and gut, which was stretched in an arched position over his legs, about 10 times, slowly. He finished me with a hard punchlike thrust in my lower guts just above my pants, making me almost sit up, then like I had done on him a stab in the center chest, between my tits. Like he had, I pushed my belly out, straining and shuddering, then "died". I'm sure I was quite aroused, but simply didn't understand it as a sexual thing. Here's a picture of a guy who looks very much like Teddy as I remember him: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/5c/e8/b65ce8f5bddc513893a31280f7ee0653.jpg
Looking back on it, while I am sure Teddy wasn't gay, I have a feeling he would have really gotten into the gut-punching scene. He really got off on punching me in the belly, and being punched in his long lean lower guts. As I said above, he would encourage me to stab (punch) him in the guts until he started to bruise!
If he looked lime that, Derek, no wonder you had many shootouts..;-) In my own case, my two buds "specialized" in different types of "getting it". Jackie in his exotic way either as Indian or "Jap" died loud and dramatic. He liked his belly deaths to show him as a wild and "cowardly". Chris, on the other hand, would be the stoic outlaw who'd get a slug thru the belly button and would stand there, grunting, thumbs tucked in "gun belt" waiting for me to finish killing the rest of his imaginary gang then come back to finish him..
The first guy I actually spent a lot of time discussing ideas with was a friend named Greg. We were both theatre nerds, so we were very into movies and discussing special effects. I remember we spent hours on the phone, discussing how we would shoot or stab the hunky jocks we had gym class with, as we knew well what their bodies looked like. I remember one Italian guy, Dave, who was our favorite target, he had big bulging pecs and a slightly bulging but muscular belly. Greg was the first guy I ever discussed scenes with using our terms, and he loved describing ramming a spear slowly through Dave's bellybutton into his guts, stabbing him with a dagger repeatedly into the curve of his low guts, or pumping bullets into his tits, then drilling his big belly and watching it quiver. One time Greg decided to surprise me and snuck into my apartment after school one day, while I was on the phone. I didn't notice him come in. I turned around and there he was smiling at me, and I felt something ram into my belly and then there was a bang and I flew back and hit the floor. I looked down in horror and saw a black hole in my shirt. Turns out he had borrowed a starter pistol and thought it would be funny to surprise me and shoot me in the gut right under my navel. He didn't realize that the blast would burn. It blew a hole through my shirt, and metal fragments sank into my flesh a good half-inch. I had a scar from that for years, and occasionally a tiny piece of copper would work its way out of my skin. He was very apologetic, but in truth it was very exciting, and I jerked off over the memory for years.
If your comment doesn't show up, please give it a few hours, I might have to authorize it to be posted because this site has been glitching out and marking some comments as spam! -The Bellybutcher
Nothing like taking a big load of slugs in your guts! The first cop has a big hard gut, which swells even bigger as the bullets drill into it. The second cop has a smaller, softer little beerbelly, which quivers as each bullet punches into it, in a tight grouping right around his navel. He'll clutch that soft bloody bellyflesh tightly between his fingers as he drops to his knees, then flops forward as he kisses the dirt.
ReplyDeleteDerek, you and Tattoo would have been great playing the cops here. I can just see it all so clearly in my mind's eye. You both did similar clips over the years. Of course, nothing can equal the clip you both did where he stabbed you as you filled his belly with lead and died on top of you. So fucking hot!
DeleteGreat description, Derek! It's only right that the thug aim right for their bellies, whether it be a big, round, vulnerable belly or a smaller pot.. those bullets were made for shredding guts!
DeleteDino, Ashe...if I were to cast this as a movie fro my guys, the first guy would definitely be Big Scott...I had actually filmed several scenes of him getting his big hairy belly pumped, and he seemed to especially enjoy getting a gut-full of slugs right around his deep-set navel. He would push and surge his belly out as if to try to eject the slugs with his heaving belly muscles.
DeleteThe second guy would have to be Pizza Guy, as after he got married he put on quite a few pounds. He was still lanky and generally skinny, but now he had a bulging little pot belly, and it was very soft. I can see the slugs ripping through that thin white shirt, each slug punching a hole in his soft bellyflesh making it ripple and quiver, with a last slug driving him to orgasm as it knifes through his tie and right through his navel, drilling through his guts to his spine. He'd stand there for a moment, shuddering, as his pulsing cock sprayed a hot load over his lower gut, then drops to his knees and falls forward, his blood-and-cum-spattered belly grinding against the ground.
Love it! "Gotcha covered" don't mean a thing to a fit guy with his gun already pointed at his pot. At least neither man died with an empty belly. Haha. They had just stuffed those ample bellies full of chow and cold beer when they got desert served to 'em about navel high. Fuckin' hot, Ashe! The first guy got it right through his leather shirt and his buddy got a few holes right in his necktie and stretched-out white shirt. "UUhhhhhh, ya got me in my belly". The killer is cuming in his jeans, too, as he fills both men with hot lead. I can see the shirt-and-tie man falling belly-first on top of his partner's aching gut, both of them groaning one last time as their bellies slap together.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Dino, that's a wonderful scene ending! I can imagine the killers excitement as he watches both men twitch and groan as their bellies are loaded up with more and more hot lead!
Deletelove the way the first guys full belly sticks up in the air like a leather basket ball
ReplyDeleteThanks! That jacket was definitely a tight fit on him.
DeleteI would say a perfect fit
ReplyDeleteWithout exception, every guy I have ever discussed shooting scenes with has embraced the idea of a bellyful of lead with enthusiasm. Whether describing themselves or someone else getting it, the idea of getting riddled right in the belly in the navel area always goes over well. It seems every guy, whether big-bellied or muscular or skinny, has imagined it on themselves. Some like the idea of a quick blast of auto fire ripping into their guts, while others prefer getting pumped one slug at a time, but all in that same area.
ReplyDeleteSame here, Derek. I wish I had done what you did and had them open up about all the gut shots and belly stabs. I've known a few guys at work who have reacted well to some scene I described to them, two or three of them exceptionally well, but you had long discussions with your actors. Thanks for sharing them with us, by the way.
DeleteIn this particular scenario idea, I have over the years had at least a dozen guys either pull up or unbutton or remove their shirts, without any prodding on my part, to demonstrate for me exactly how and where they'd take a bellyful of lead. The challenge for me was keeping a poker face, showing only a clinical interest! Many of these were guys I never had a chance to film with, so I only have the memories. It's fun recalling them poking at their bellies with their fingers, demonstrating the order they would take the shots. My favorite was a guy in college, a redhead ROTC student with a beautifully muscled alabaster physique. He was so nicely cut, and had one of those college six-pack beerbellies with just a slight bulge, but nice cuts. He was wearing only a tight pair of gym shorts. He showed the arrangement of shots he would take in those hard bulging muscles. Having taken about 7 rounds in his belly, he was back against a wall, clutching his riddled belly, and slid down to a sitting position, then explained how he would finish up by taking a line of slugs running straight down from his bellybutton, into his hard lower gut, and finishing with rounds in his cockhead, shaft, and balls. I can still visualize it like it was last night.
ReplyDeleteSo hot, Derek! I would have been a mess by the time he got done.
DeleteYeah, that was a tough one, especially the last five bullets, watching him poke himself in the navel, gut, dick and balls (and in his tight gym shorts, his sizeable cock was obviously pointing straight up). Watching him fondling his package very explicitly made it hard to keep a straight face.
DeleteIf he got an erection, Derek, I couldn't have been held responsible for my actions. Hehe. Sexy guys talking about getting stabbed or shot in the belly is a good way to get me majorly turned on.
DeleteThat was back in the day when we all wore tight bikini briefs under our gym shorts, so we always seemed to have an erection! Whether stiff or not, we were always positioned standing at attention.
DeleteI also noted that he thought up his scenario using a Walther PPK, a .32 caliber gun favored by James Bond. A .32 slug is good for close action shooting, leaves a nice navel-sized bullet hole and doesn't spread..it just punches a neat hole in your belly and lodges in your guts. Perfect for close range target shooting. Like I said, this guy was ROTC and knew all about guns, so he had thought about it. Taking five rounds in your belly would be painful, but wouldn't blow your guts apart. A very accurate gun for putting a bullet cleanly through a bellybutton or a dickhead without making a huge mess. I have fired a Walther and it's a great gun. Incidentally, I did a check and the gun holds 10 rounds, so it would have been five in the belly, and five more from the navel to the balls.
DeleteI know very little about guns, myself, but I do know enough about them to know that Hollywood often gets it wrong. One slug in the belly causes Hollywood victims to die instantly, or very near it. Absurd. And size does not matter, only where the slugs enter the belly, so a man who's skinny or big and ball-bellied are on equal ground. It is very possible for a man like your ROTC student could very well eat ten or even twelve slugs before "checking out", as long as the vitals were not struck. Of course, the caliber plays a part in it all. My Max would insist that he could take six slugs pointblank right in his bellybutton before dying, and he was no doubt right about that.
DeleteI still have a tape of a phone conversation with one of my boys...he called me late one night very excited. We had just had a long discussion the day before about shootings and how they are played in movies and TV shows, and he was nearly hysterical because he had just seen an example on TV: "This guy was arguing with this other guy, and he pulled out a gun, and just shot him, right, right, right in the belly, and he grabbed his belly and went "Ughhh!!!" and just died instantly! It was ridiculous!"
Delete"Where'd he get him?"
"Right square in his belly, like right in his bellybutton!"
Caliber does indeed play a part as well; I remember Pizza Boy, when describing himself getting shot repeatedly, would always suggest a .22 pistol: "It's small, but getting shot in the guts with it would hurt like a bitch". Most of the scene ideas he came up with were close up or point blank, and he loved taking small caliber slugs because he felt he could take a lot of hits before dying. Pizza was big on taking a bellyful, but he would also describe taking shots to the nipples, as well as in his dick, which he felt would get hard from the sensation of the other bullets penetrating him. He'd usually finish with a slug to the navel, then one through his hard dick. The only time he ever described getting it with larger bullets was being machine-gunned, or his fave scenario of getting bayoneted in the belly, getting an erection, then getting bayoneted and shot through his dick into his guts.
Longhair was one of the few guys I filmed with who preferred the concept of taking big slugs. He often talked about wanting to get "a .44 caliber bellyache!", taking three or more big slugs in his guts around his navel.
ROTC boy's scene idea had him taking around 5 in the belly before he slid down the wall in a sitting position...then he would take the finishing slugs in navel, gut, cockhead, cockshaft and balls in quick succession, which was believable.
Yeah, the only part of the belly/gut that would be vital in any man, skinny or big, would be the aorta. If one of the slugs severed the aorta, his chances of survival would be close to zero. I had a doctor tell me that if a man were to have his aorta severed or even nicked while unconscious and prepped for surgery he would doubtless die on the operating table, as the heart would simply pump the blood into the abdominal cavity.....within a minute, or less, the man would be dead. I remember seeing an old episode of Gunsmoke in which a handsome young kid got shot in the belly, probably right in the navel. Doc took one look at the wound and knew immediately that the kid wasn't going to make it...and he died right after that.
DeleteRight, but in this case my guy was saying the guy died instantly, from a belly shot, as if hit in the heart! Even an aorta hit takes about a minute to bleed out.
ReplyDeleteWe used to discuss the aorta, as a straight thrust in the navel area would likely get it. Interestingly, if you go down about 4-5 inches, you can stab straight into the guts and miss any major blood vessels, as the aorta splits into the illiac arteries that run to the legs just under the navel. Several of my guys liked taking or giving hits (spear, knife, arrow, sword or gun) right in the guts halfway between navel and cock, because it would be painful and dramatic, but not quickly fatal. "Ahhhh! Ya got me right in the guts!" That was the sweet spot to take it for The Swede, Big Red, Tattoo Guy, Babyface and Big Scott.
Getting even more specific, Longhair, who was really into swordplay (he was a frequent medieval fair performer) said this was his favorite stab idea, especially for a shortsword, which he demonstrated on me several times: in close quarters, an upthrust right in the low guts about 4-5 inches below the navel at a steep upward angle, sinking the blade in about 8-10 inches. Get ahold of your victim then, and lever the weapon upwards until it is almost straight in...externally the blade would now be jutting out right at the navel. Inside, the blade would have split up through the guts, and right up through the bottom of the aorta where it splits, causing a huge spurt of blood out of the guts. So what you get as a performance is the dramatic reaction to the relatively non-fatal but painful stab up into the guts, then a dramatic finish as you rip up to his navel, splitting the aorta for a massive blood spray and quick kill.
Of course, in our world, fantasy is the key, rather than reality, so I love long, drawn-out scenes in which the victims die slowly after getting multiple gun shots or stabbings. Unfortunately, Hollywood probably realized that such things could be sexual, so they refrained from extending the scenes. Your videos were (and are) a revelation, in that sense.
DeleteExactly...none of us really wants to see what this stuff would look like in real life. I'm not a big fan of excessive gore, and have to turn away during surgery scenes on medical shows.
DeleteThe fantasy is a romanticized, idealized version of how these scenes SHOULD look (and feel). In talking and filming with my guys, the idea I stressed was always imagining how scenes should be played using imagination, without the limitations of Hollywood moviemaking and censorship. A guy who gets shot in the belly with an arrow shouldn't instantly drop dead; he should stagger around a bit, clutch his belly, and play the agony out before he expires. I would show my guys scenes from both martial arts films and peplum epics...the Asians and Italians seemed to have a broader style of playing out death, largely due to their acting styles being so heavily influenced by opera (and typically they featured belly or gut shots, not quick chest hits). They picked up on it quite naturally, as I always framed it as play-acting, like we did as kids when playing army guys or cowboys and Indians. A few actually did pick up on the sexualized aspect of it, and understood the concept of a death orgasm...it simply made for better scenes, as I always advised them to create what would be called in theatre a "button" on a scene...that moment that indicates the character has died...a last convulsion or shudder or other sort of death throe. But I never steered my actors towards realism, always fantasy, and they responded quite instinctively.
So true. A perfect example of what you're saying is a scene from an old TV movie called Goliath Awaits (1981). I was at home from work sick and had nothing better to do but watch this silly show about a World War 2 ocean liner that gets sunk by the Nazis...and miraculously, many of the people aboard the ship survive, even grow old until they are rescued by modern-day divers. I'm so glad I watched it, for one reason....Frank Gorshin. I was always attracted to him (when he was younger) and although they aged him in the film, he was still quite sexy. Ultimately, he gets shot in the belly and his death scene was superb (although I would have extended it even more, because I'm sick like that..haha). The director must have turned Gorshin loose by telling him to "give us your best Jimmy Cagney, Frank", as Gorshin played his death scene over-the-top. It was way hot, despite the fact that Gorshin was well into his late forties by then. I recall thinking that it would have been a fabulous scene had he done it when he was in his twenties, but I still loved it.
DeleteThe old Chang Cheh Kung-fu movies were also done "over-the-top", making them the sexual delight they are, Derek, and you are so right about the musical/opera connections, as he was really into such things. I hate opera and most musicals, but I sure like the over-the-top dying scenes he created.
I got to meet Gorshin at a con in the 90s; he was a favorite in our house because he went to the same high school as my Dad.
ReplyDeleteThe Shaw Bros. movies are loaded with great over the top stuff...I used to share those with Pizza Boy, Army Guy and Smooth Guy. Great scenes with multiple arrows in the belly, spears in the guts...there's even one I have here somewhere where a guy gets it right in the dick with a sword! Lotsa really fetishy execution scenes too, with barechested guys tied with ropes to poles getting arrowed, speared or knifed, all played with orgasmic abandon. And my favorites were the ones like DUEL OF THE IRON FIST, where the two heroes kill everyone, then die at the end themselves together from their fight injuries...in this case, the one guy had a spear rammed through his back and out his belly, and the barechested guy has a big dagger in his guts. Slow, dramatic belly deaths shared are very hot.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nKFAe68hoKc/hqdefault.jpg
Check out the last four minutes:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKFAe68hoKc
Yeah, Gorshin was a natural at over-the-top acting, especially given his long career at doing impersonations. I suspect that most of his directors were forced to have him back off from his acting style. Haha.
DeleteDuel Of The Iron Fist was my favorite film by Chang Che! It was such a shock to see the two leads die, as that was not the norm in American films. Although neither is shown dead, their deaths are implied, and Chang Cheh managed to create an orgy around the two dying hunks. God, it was so hot! He obviously encouraged his actors to over-do it, and all seemed to really get into it. He was like a Chinese version of Derek. LOL
And one does like the open shirts on many of the thugs ��.
DeleteYou'll see more bare-belly stabs, shots, arrows and spears in Shaw Bros. films than anywhere else. And 90% of the hits are belly shots as opposed to chest hits.
DeleteOne of my favorites is NAVAL COMMANDOS, which is loaded with shirtless belly gunshots, knife stabs, and especially unusual, bayonets to bare bellies. There are a couple of scenes where a bare-chested guy gets 2 or 3 bayonets in his belly at the same time. Great stuff!
Yep, ole Chang Cheh was definitely "one of us". Were he still alive today, he would no doubt be a member of the "clan". He seemed to search for new ways to give it to his stars in their bellies. I have about fifty of his films on DVD, and I wish I had the ability to edit them together into a long belly stabbing/shooting scene. In one of them he actually combined a sword which fired "bullets" out of the end of the blade. So hot! In another favorite, he had one of his shirtless actors dive into a pillbox where two enemy soldiers were brandishing a machine gun. The kid got a bellyful of lead from the machine gun, but still managed to slay the two enemy soldiers before dying. He loved men sacrificing their own lives for their country and fellow comrades. I can only assume that it turned him on, as it certainly turns us on. In another favorite, a man singlehandedly destroys an entire syndicate of gangsters, (at least a hundred men....and I'm not exaggerating) before he gets a blade shoved into his naked belly and is forced to give it up. His buddies slay the last remaining gangster (who had just killed the man). Honor to the death is what Chang Cheh loved, and so do I. He was one of the first writer/directors who introduced "killer females" to the screen....beautiful, seductive women who seduced young, handsome males, so she could stab them in their bellies, and watch them die in agony. There will never be another like him, I suspect.
DeleteThis genre, where the heroes take a lot of damage but still defeat the enemies before dying, is known in Hong Kong as "Heroic Bloodshed". A spin-ff of that is the films of John Woo in the 80s.
DeleteYou're right, he was the king having actors get it in the belly...until I came along!
Great line in “ Duel of the Iron Fist”: “ How many times do I have to tell you, ya gotta aim for the belly”””... kind of our credo. Lol. If only the guys’s navels showed more.
ReplyDeleteDo you recall roughly where in the film that occurs?
DeletePart of rhe first big fight when the white shirt guys are all killed. The hero instrucys his somewhat dopey sidekick and rhen finishes off a wounded white shirt baddie.
DeleteHah! My version is subbed, and in the subbed version he stabs a lot of guys across the throat, then says "How many times have I told you NOT to stab the belly? Even if you disembowel him, he might not necessarily die!"
DeleteOh no...maybe I misheard him then. Wishful thinking on my part maybe. A good disembowling should do it though lol.
DeleteMy favorite line from the movie is the one where the young friend of the main star gets a cane pole shoved through his guts, from behind. The star slays the enemies and rushes to his young friend. As he lifts the teenager up, his cute buddy mumbles something about "if I had listened to you I would still have my belly", which in our terms is simply strange. It's an obvious example of bad dubbing....maybe even spoken words that don't translate well into English.
DeleteOK, my subs stop halfway through the film, I will have to find another set. BUT...turns out my copy has a dub track as well!
DeleteIn the first scene, at around 12:15, the guy says to his young friend "How many times do I have to tell you? You aim for the belly and chances are you won't kill the man! You've got to aim high, see?"
In the second scene, at 1:35, where the young guy gets the bamboo through his back and out his guts, on my dub print he says "It's all my own fault, I didn't listen to you...I still aim at the belly, you know that?" then he dies.
I suspect there are several different dubs floating around.
Yes, after my own “investigation “ of the version I have Derek is right. His young friend no doubt like us has been excited by the sight of all those bare bellies ( if not the navels) of the white coat gang and understandably went for the belly. Like a y normal young man wants to kill them of course but his older friend advises to aim higher since the main concern to kill all the men whom they fight. Efficient ? But hardly fun ;-)
DeleteOf course he turns out to be wrong, as HE gets stabbed in the belly and it's quite effective!
ReplyDeleteAlways is...;-)
DeleteLast night I found some videotape of a shirtless Smooth Guy discussing some scenes and we found a photo of one guy with a bit of a belly and Smooth really went to town on him, explaining in graphic detail how he would pump that big belly full of lead. Smooth pointed out where each shot would go, and then grabbed his own belly and jiggled it to demonstrate how it would move on the impacts. Pretty much exactly like Ashe's illustration.
ReplyDeleteBoy, I would have loved seeing and hearing that discussion, especially since he was one of my all time favorites, Derek. That no doubt gave you a woody. It sure would do that to me. Haha. Even when he gained a bit of a beer belly, he remained so hot and belly-centered. He would have been perfect as the second cop in Ashe's drawing.
DeleteThe very first scene I ever filmed with Smooth Guy had The Kid running up to him, shoving a pistol in his belly and pumping five slugs into him...he grabbed at it and growled "aw, right in the guts! I knew right then I was going to love working with him. He loved any kind of belly hit, including navel shots, and loved talking about them. And when he'd take a bellyful himself, he'd always groan and strain and push out and heave his belly orgasmically. He was great.
ReplyDeleteI remember that scene so well, Derek. I can always tell when a guy is a natural and he was obviously that. You should have edited an entire video of his scenes, like you did with Xavier.
DeleteWhere can anyone find a pic ? ;-)
DeleteBob, sorry, I checked and I don't have any stills of that scene, and the vid is not online.
DeleteOh well...ok.
DeleteSpeaking of police shooting, I ran across a tape last night, must be 25 years old, of a phone conversation I had with a guy I don't even remember. He gave me a very graphic description of a great scene he had seen:
ReplyDelete"The villain goes to this guy's apartment...the guy's a cop, see, and the cop doesn't know this guy is the bad guy...he opens the door and lets him in. He's just woken up, he's wearing shorts, you know, briefs, and no shirt on...he's pretty built, he's got a big chest, good pecs and that kinda belly with the cuts, you know, a six-pack. They're talking, and the bad guy pulls out a .45 auto. The cop turns around, and the guy grabs him and shoves the barrel of the gun right in his gut, right in his navel. You see the cop's eyes go wide as he feels it. They show a close-up of the gun in the guy's navel, the cop's pretty muscular and you see his belly flex up as the guy shoves the gun in harder, and his eyes go wider, then boom! And you see a blood splatter hit the wall out his back. And the cop kinda shakes as the guy drops him, then we see him on the floor with a big ol' bloody hole where his bellybutton used to be. Then you see the villain leave, and the guy on the floor is holding his belly with blood gushing through his fingers and outta his mouth. But he's dead...he took a .45 bullet right in his bellybutton and it went clear through his guts and out his back. And you really feel it watching it, at least I did. That's the only time I ever saw a guy get it where you knew for sure he was getting shot right in the bellybutton."
He went on a little longer talking about the scene, it had clearly made quite an impression on him, in the sense that it was one of those scenes where watching it you really felt it. He even said his own belly tightened up when the gun got rammed in to the guy's navel. He didn't say so, but he was so excited about the scene it was clear to me that he was sorta turned on by it.
Sounds really hot, Derek. It's the type of movie scene we'd all want to see. That guy would have been right at home in our various sites, for sure. I've known co-workers who reacted as though they were turned on when I described such a scene to them. Thanks for sharing that with us. Hollywood always seems to avoid the navel as a target, and it's obviously because they don't have any balls. Haha
DeleteIt was part of a long larger conversation discussing all sorts of shots; he described another favorite of his where he said he saw a bare-chested guy get strafed with a row of five slugs right across the pecs, from one nipple to the other. He seemed pretty aroused by that one too.
ReplyDeleteWhen we got to the subject of navel hits, he said he had seen several good ones, especially in martial arts films...I remember one was in a rather well-known scene where a guy gets it in the belly with a dagger right in the navel, because that was the only spot where he was vulnerable. You've probably seen that one. He also described one where a guy slowly had a spear rammed through his navel, almost more as a torture than a kill (although the guy died); he remembered that one in detail because, like the guy getting it, he himself had a rather soft belly, and he could imagine the spear point poking into his navel, then his belly being pushed in as the shaft sank into his guts...he said he could really identify with that one. He also described a couple arrow-in-the-navel scenes, and a bayonet-in-the-navel But the gunshot scene was the only time he had ever seen that.
Yes, I own that Chang Cheh movie in which the guy gets stabbed in his navel, but unfortunately Cheh didn't do it right. You see the dagger at his bellybutton, but it is not shown entering it (unless it was edited out, for some reason). The film is called The Brave Archer (which is ironic since there no archery shown in the entire film). We know he's gotten it in his navel because he mentions the fact afterwards (I can't believe that you stabbed me in my navel). It is still a hot scene, and the "immortal" guy is hot as hell....and doesn't die right away. I just wish that Cheh had shown the blade enter and go the hilt in his bellybutton. One of my co-workers is like that guy, in that he likes all kinds of stabbing and shooting violence, but he seems to favor the belly as a target and gets stirred up every time I describe a scene from one of Chang Cheh's movies. He always grabs his belly and groans as though he's been shot or stabbed.....can't seem to help himself. Haha
DeleteThe Shaw Bros. movies typically fudge on showing actual penetration of weapons, although there are some exceptions. Generally the actual thrust is barely shown, but they make up for it by showing the weapon stuck in, often on a bare belly, and generous spurts of blood. It's the thought that counts! Hits in Italian peplum films are much the same...they will cheat on showing the actual penetration, but make up for it with blood and generous overacting in response. They do, however, often use elaborate wirework for spear and arrow impacts, comparable to American Western films of the 50s and 60s.
DeleteYour comment made me think a bit about penetration, and all that suggests. The element that most guys seem to remember from a scene is whether or not you see (or at least seem to see) the weapon penetrate the target. All the guys I have ever talked to were much more enthusiastic about the scenes where they came away thinking they had seen the victim clearly pierced, punctured, stuck, stabbed, speared, skewered, run through, rammed, gigged, impaled or thrust with a weapon. Indeed their biggest complaint was usually when they felt they had been cheated on penetration in a shot.
DeleteThe biggest selling point I had when filming scenes with my guys was the use of special effects and props, as well as the staging, camera angles and acting, to create a convincing illusion of penetration. And in discussing what it would be like, my guys were very verbose in describing it:
"I'd feel the cold steel of the dagger blade as it pierces into my belly; my belly muscles would tighten around the blade as it sinks in. As it sinks into my guts I'd feel a sharp hot pain, which spreads through my belly and down to my groin. I'd feel a punch in my belly as the hilt hits it, and my cock stiffens as pain radiates down through my guts. I look down and see the knife buried deep in my guts, and the handle jutting out of my quivering belly." - Pizza Boy
"I'd feel the cold muzzle of the gun ram into my navel; my belly goes soft and folds around the barrel. I'd hear the gun go off, and feel hot slugs punch through my navel and rip deep into my guts. Each bullet pumping into my belly causes it to swell and quiver, as I feel the fire burning in my guts." - Babyface
"He would ram the spear right into my bare gut, low, below my bellybutton. I'd grab at the shaft but would not be able to stop it as it plunges through my lower belly and drives deep into my guts. I would look down and see the wooden shaft sticking out of my gut under my navel, and feel the heavy metal spearhead drive clear through my guts and out my back and into the wall. The muscles in my belly would clench and convulse, and I would slump over, hanging helplessly by my guts on the spear as I die." - Xavier
Those are a couple of examples, but you get the idea. All my guys wanted to pretend to experience their bellies being penetrated, and conscious or not, they clearly found the idea sexually arousing.
I had a buddy years ago who was stabbed deep in the belly, to the right of his bellybutton (almost reached his spine, as he was lean). He said he had no idea he'd been stabbed (thought the man had just gut-punched him) until another man told him that he was bleeding. It wasn't until he saw the blood on his white shirt that it dawned on him how serious it was. He was rushed to the hospital and survived. The brain blocks the "real knowledge", to combat shock, which can kill you. The pain seared through his belly as soon as he saw that he was stabbed. For our purposes, that doesn't work, of course. We need instant moaning and groaning. cringing and gasping. Haha. I don't have to see the penetration, naturally, but it does help. The sounds and action that follows is the best part for me.
DeleteAgain, the technical reality has little to do with the fantasy. I have read many time of men being shot in the belly not knowing they had been shot. But where's the fun in that? Guys want to grab their bellies, clutch their wound, and make a damn show out of it!
DeleteAs one guy said to me once, "I don't care about all the technical stuff, just give it to me in my gut, baby!" as he slapped his belly, hard!
DeleteMen just gotta get it in the belly .
DeleteStatistically, I would have to say you are correct. I never had a guy say he would prefer to get it in the chest, back or head. Without exception they would always say in the belly or in the guts. And I would guess 60-70% would say right in the navel, or at least in the navel area. Second would be maybe 20% saying they'd prefer it in the guts, below the navel and above the cock. Maybe 10% would say upper belly between navel and sternum.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds about right to me, Derek. When brandishing my retractable play knife, every single guy took it in their hands and plugged the blade right into their belly, then groaned as if they had been stabbed. In most cases, they stabbed themselves in the navel area, too. It pretty much seems universal to me.....and strictly male, too. Women have zero interest in such things, and consider it silly.....or even bizarre behavior.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI always told my actors to pretend they were playing war back when they were 10 or 12...get in that mindset. At that age we all tried to play the hammiest deaths, and it always involved getting it in the belly. Nobody grabs their chest.
ReplyDeleteSo true, Derek. My own experience and my then buds were the same: we always got it in the belly and played it over the top. There’d always be at least one or two of us that made sure it was in our bellybuttons too.
DeleteYep, Gutsy. My buddies and I firmly believed that our bellies were a repository for hot lead and sharp objects.
DeleteDerek, over-the-top acting was always encouraged among us punks. Haha. We all hated to see guys get it and just fall dead. It was not at all dramatic....or sensual to us.
yes. It had to be sensual and dramatic. Hands clutching at the belly..or over the navel...staggering..squealing..belly thrust out as if full of hot lead..hot.
DeleteAnother technique I would use to get good performances is to ask the guys to play the scene out in slow motion. Or sometimes we would just rehearse in slow motion, and I would "forget" to tell them to speed up on the actual takes.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone here remember James Franciscus getting riddled in BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES? It's an effective squib scene, pretty startling for its time. James was wearing a loincloth, with bandages running across his belly and at an angle up across his chest. The squibs were hidden under the bandages.
ReplyDeleteHere's the fun part: every single guy have I ever discussed that scene with does NOT remember the bandages. Usually their description is something like this:
"yeah, his gun jams and he gets a burst of slugs right in the guts, right around his bellybutton, then a second strafe from his right tit to his left shoulder."
What always cracked me up is that they completely forget the bandages...because he's been bare-chested throughout the movie. They also tend to forget the shot in the forehead, which is actually the first shot, in closeup. I have also had a couple guys tell me that both bursts caught him in the belly, one across the navel and the second in the low guts just above his loincloth.
I find it very interesting that these guys all imagined the scene as they wanted to see it, not as it actually was...they wanted to see that beautifully muscled six-pack belly get pumped full of lead! The following stills show the scene as it actually happened: he gets a shot in the head, then the burst across the belly, then the strafe up his chest.
https://cdn.moviestillsdb.com/i/500x/lhgq0fh7/beneath-the-planet-of-the-apes-lg.jpg
http://www.ie-commerce.net/library/850px/282/282361.jpg
http://www.cinemaretro.com/uploads/franciscusapes.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bCnj1a-4PP8/hqdefault.jpg
Yeah, I remember the scene well. It always pissed me off that the director felt the need to cover up his belly for that final scene (but I understand why....the squibs). He was among the few blond actors who really got me turned on, and he was the best thing about that movie, given that he spent so much time topless in it. I certainly wished that he had been shot "only" in his naked belly, but it's just one of scores of misdirected scenes in films. Minus the head and chest shots, Franciscus could have grabbed his belly and died sensually, but no, it was not to happen.
DeleteWhat cracks me up about it is that most guys do not remember the bandages, they think they saw him take it in his bare belly, and a few though they saw him take a lot more slugs in his guts than he actually did. Wishful thinking. That rippling six-pack is such a perfect target, that in their minds' eyes that's how he took it. A bare bellyful!
ReplyDeleteHahaha. I've lost count of the times I've done that, Derek. In my mind, I see entire scenes differently. It's odd, to say the least. Another thing about that scene is you'll notice that the bandage keeps changing (wider and covering more of his belly). In the second still, his bellybutton is clearly visible, but the next still shows it covered. If only it had been shot by you, Derek. LOL.
DeleteActually it's the squibs firing that move the bandage...you can even see the metal backing sticking out under the bandage on the chest squib in the final shot.
ReplyDeleteOur minds tend to fill in the blanks when watching movies. I have shown many of my guys that great scene from GIANT OF MARATHON where the nearly-naked guy in the water gets speared. They will swear to you they saw the spear plunge clear through his bare belly in the navel and go right out his back. But you don't...it just seems that way thanks to great editing, a great spear prop, and good sound fx.
Another is the scene in the original FRIDAY THE 13TH when the boy goes down to the kitchen for a snack and ends up nailed to a door with a butcher knife in his bare belly. Except that's not actually what you see; but you think you do because his shirt is clearly unbuttoned before he gets it.
https://bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/halloween-product-background.jpg
A favorite of mine is in JASON TAKES MANHATTAN, the first scene on the boat, when Jim gets the speargun rammed into his bare belly. The shot is actually a trick shot: the speargun is already rammed hard into his belly, and is jerked out; the footage is then run backwards! Then he gives a wonderful orgasmic reaction. So you do see it, but it's a trick because it's a reverse shot. I wish I had had that capability in my videos!
Here's a good video recap of the scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=98&v=ErbkfAEmpxM
Derek, I believe that the scene from Friday The 13th is actually from the original Halloween. Ironically, in an interview, director John Carpenter claimed that the kid was stabbed in the chest, but that still proves otherwise, as he is clearly stabbed in the belly. I got quite a jolt when that scene took place. It's hot as hell.
DeleteYes, sorry, I meant Halloween. And it's definitely in the belly, not the chest. However, I have always found it unlikely that a butcher knife in the belly would support that guy off the ground in an upright position. Maybe right under the sternum, yes, but not through a soft belly...he'd slump forward. The still makes it look like it's right above his navel.
ReplyDeleteHow'd you like the speargun in the guts scene from JASON/MANHATTAN?
Always loved that scene from Jason In Manhattan, Derek. I agree with you about that scene in Halloween. To me, it looks like he got it right in the bellybutton, but either way, there's no way the knife would have held him up like that. Too bad Carpenter didn't show the knife stuck in his naked belly. That would have been hot as hell. Ironic that a new Halloween just opened today, and I gather from the reviews, it's pretty good.
DeleteMost of the Friday the 13th films are disappointing, but I have a couple favorites. I was living in Hollywood when the first film came out, and saw the uncut version before the film was picked up by Paramount. Remember the guy seen hanging dead on the door of the generator room with arrows? In the original cut, you saw him take the arrow in the chest, then the one in the dick, then the throat, then his head slam back with the arrow in the eye. When the film was released by Paramount, the entire kill scene was cut and you just see him hanging on the door...and his throat has been cut as well.
ReplyDeleteThe flashback to when the counselors are macheted was much more graphic....the boy took it hard right in the belly, the girl in the throat.
I had a talk with Tom Savini about The Final Chapter, which he did the f/x for. I told him my favorite kill was the scene in the lake where the shirtless boy is climbing out of the water onto the dock, and Jason rams him way down low in the guts (so low it might have caught his dick) with a speargun, and then picks him up in the air on it, then fires the gun sending the spear on up through his guts and belly. Then we have a longer shot of him hanging in the air on the speargun. Tom told me that was one of the first films where Paramount used computers to doctor a scene...they digitally airbrushed out the wires holding him in the air, and the scene was shot with lots of fog to make it easy to do that. Digital stuff was still very expensive and difficult in 1984.
HI did you know the old forum Arenafighter ? Its seem like close. Do you know the other forum?
ReplyDeleteYes we all used to go to Arenafighter.
Deleteyeah so sad it closed ,we need a other forum
DeleteI wonder if Ashe has noticed that we are in desperate need of new artwork? We miss you Ashe!
ReplyDeleteMy sentiments too.
DeleteHey all! Sorry my site hasn't been updating much, I'm in the middle of a big move and haven't had much time to draw lately. I've been reading your comments when I get them, though, all so hot!
DeleteIt's all right, Ashe. We understand. Post another when you get the time. We'll still be here.
DeleteWe try to keep busy as we anxiously await your next piece; in the meantime we hope our posts inspire some ideas for you, Ashe!
DeleteOne issue I have always had in these discussions is terminology. The two words I have always found to be decidedly un-erotic are abdomen and stomach. The first because it sounds too medical, the latter because it is usually used incorrectly. So when I would talk with my guys I would first do my best to break them of using those words. I would suggest that abdomen was way too general, as it covers the entire area from the sternum to the cock. Stomach is also way too general a term to use describing the midsection, and it is inaccurate, as the actual stomach is tucked up under the ribs and only part of it extends down into the upper left quadrant of the abdomen.
ReplyDeleteTo keep things clear, I would use the target areas that I learned many years ago from medieval fair stunt performers: chest is from just under the nipples up to the collarbone. Belly extends from below the sternum to the navel. The gut, or guts, go from just below the navel to just above the cock. I have many times amused myself by having first-timers remove their shirts and pull their pants down a bit so I could actually show them the range of these areas, and point out how little of the stomach actually extends into the belly, so if they wanted to hit the stomach they specifically had to be hitting the upper left belly. Of course the most fun was pointing out the range of the guts, starting at the bellybutton and drawing down almost to the groin.
If you pierce the bellybutton you are actually going into the upper guts, but it makes more sense to include the bellybutton as part of the belly...if someone gets punched in the belly you just naturally assume you are hitting in the navel area. I would clarify that the guts for the most part is the area where the lower abdomen curves back and down to the groin. So, to recap:
Upper belly is the area relatively just below the sternum, and includes the stomach.
Middle belly is the six-pack area.
Lower belly is the navel area.
Upper guts is the area just under the navel.
Middle guts is the area halfway between navel and cock.
Lower guts is the area just above the cock.
By teaching this language to my guys, we were always clear on exactly what we were talking about when describing hits, and I was able to get them to use the language I preferred.
It was also helpful to point out that the muscles in the belly are the flexors for bending over, while the gut muscles are more for support, holding the internal organs in place.
Fun fact: if you are crucified, guess what kills you? Suffocation! After hanging for a while, the gut muscles become exhausted and lose tone. The weight of the organs in your guts and belly make it sag, pulling against the diaphragm, which makes the lungs unable to inflate, and you eventually suffocate! I used to demonstrate this to my guys while describing a scene you may remember from a peplum film from the 60s, the title of which I can't recall. There's a scene where there are some men crucified, and some Roman soldiers ride by on horseback. One of the crucified men begins insulting a young Roman officer, who is so enraged that he draws his sword and rams it up into the man's guts. The man gasps, gives a look of relief, and dies. An older officer the chides the young one who stabbed him, pointing out that he had been played, and had given the crucified man exactly what he wanted...a quick death!
Hahaha. You were quite cunning, Derek. It was the perfect way to have them expose the "canvas"....and even allowed you to touch it. Wish I had thought of that. I even pointed out to one guy (online friend) that the navel was nowhere near the stomach, and I think he was offended somewhat by being corrected. In his mind, the abdomen/belly/gut was all stomach. I agree with you that stomach is not a good term for the belly/gut, and abdomen is far too clinical to be sexy. The worst term for me was tummy. Only small kids have a tummy. By the teenage years, it has always been belly or gut for me.
DeleteThat scene you describe is another version of what happened to Jesus on the cross, though taken to another level. I recall one like it used in the TV version of Spartacus (not the series), I think.
The result is that I noticed some guys would describe their hits based largely on what word they enjoyed saying more. I would say overall that belly was more popular for gunshots, and guts more for stabs and spears.
ReplyDeleteFor example, Smooth Guy really liked to say "right in the belly" when describing shooting scenes, leading to the ever-popular "pump him in the belly" and "bellyful of lead" descriptions. But for stabbing he definitely preferred "right in the guts"....usually "right in the guts...in the guts, just below the navel". For spears he would say "right in the belly, right in the bellybutton" on a guy with a nice build, but if the guy had a bulging belly he'd take a spear "right in the guts, man!"
Blond Greek was surprisingly fetishy about it. On gunshots on himself he always wanted to take it "right in my belly...I think I could take a bellyful" but for stabs or spears he was very specific: "I'd take it right in the low guts, man...right above my cock." He seemed to differentiate between gunshots in his belly, which would feel more like punches, and stabs or spearings, where the effect was more of penetration, and he wanted to take that in his low guts. He had those low gut muscles that were defined in a V-shape, and he saw the low part of that V, just above his dick, as his most vulnerable area to be penetrated for the best reaction. I used to nearly faint when he'd pull down his pants almost to the pubic line, flex his gutmuscles, and punch with his fist into them to demonstrate a hit. He was also surprising cool about taking it right in the dick, once I explained the idea of the weapon pinning his cock upright against his guts. In Overkill he got stabbed, sworded and speared through his dick into his guts and played it great; and I can tell you from personal experience when we filmed (alone together) a scene of me stabbing him in the belly, tit, gut and dick that after about three takes he was rock-hard! He responded especially well when I'd stab his dick against his guts, then jerk the blade up a few times. Ah, those were the days!
Ahh, yes..really good memories, Derek and Dino! Love the "clinical" dissertation and the "zones". My buds and I never used "stomach".
DeleteIt was always "belly" and occasionally "gut". We meant it to include everything from the sternum down to where we'd decide to wear our pants or shorts..usually well below the bellybutton.
In fact, the only variety would be the occasional use of "navel" instead of "bellybutton."
I had two main "play war" buddies...it was basically belly kills all the time under various guises.
"Jackie" was a darker skinned kid who'd either play an "Indian" (especially if he was wearing his bead chokers) or if we were at the beach or pool a "Jap". His mother was from Europe and let him wear pretty skimpy bathingsuits so his whole belly showed..he thought it made him look more "exotic" so foreign so liked the "Jap" persona. In the latter role it was often "spear gun" or knife "right in the belly button".
"Chris" was a "Western character" all the way..loved being an "outlaw".. for him it was getting "plugged in the belly" that was his style.
Most of my experience was in college and beyond; I only had a couple of play experiences with guy friends in my teen years.
ReplyDeleteOne was with a buddy named Teddy, a tall, long-haired kid who I only saw very occasionally when his Mom came to visit my Mom...we would take off and play. This would have been about age 14-15. Ashe will appreciate that our play area was a big old barn full of hay and implements. If it was summer and time to play with Teddy, shirts came off immediately and off we went to the barn. Sometimes we just played getting shot while on piles of hay...we would grab our bellies and do elaborate falls from the top of the pile of hay bales. I remember many times we'd get shot, and fall, and end up one atop the other, belly-to-belly, sweaty, playing our our painful gut-deaths so we died simultaneously. I was a very average build; Teddy was taller than me and thin but with very defined pecs and a nicely cut skinny belly; usually his jeans cut him about 5 inches below his navel. I can still remember the feel of that taut belly heaving against my own as we pretended to be riddled together. I remember clutching his chest and fingering his nipples, and his navel of course! We would also pretend to knife each other; no props of course, we just pretended to have knives as we ground and twisted our fists into each other's bellies. Teddy would even pull his jeans down to his hips, so there was a big flat area of exposed gut to stab. He'd end up in a sitting position and just let me punch/stab him in the guts over and over until he was bruised...I'm sure I punched him in the dick a few times too!
Since I was smaller than him, he liked to play sword-thrusting me in my belly, nearly picking me up on his fist as he rammed his "sword" through my guts and lifting me up. Since there were all sorts of old tools in the barn we often played spearing each other, using old tool handles, driving the blunt end into each other's guts. We also had an old pitchfork that had been made from a single piece of wood. It had smooth rounded ends on the three tines, so of course we had to play trident with it...sometimes horizontally with the middle tine going right in the navel on me or in Teddy across his guts as he folded over it...we'd drive it in as hard and far as we could without actually hurting each other. Teddy was especially enthusiastic about sticking things into my bellybutton and I didn't argue. Sometimes we'd get old tomato sticks (the green ones you'd tie vines to) and pretend they were arrows, stick them in our navels, and play long agonizing arrow-in-the-belly deaths together. But the best were scenes where we'd repeatedly stab each other, me getting it in the belly and he getting it in his long gut, and die on top of each other. If it was warm enough, we'd put on shorts and head down to the crick and play pirate movie, having swordfights with sticks or getting shot, ending up sprawled and dying on the smooth wet rocks.
We've got a lot in common ;-)
DeleteTeddy sounds a lot like my buddy Max, who had a long, lean, flat body, built like a swimmer. On sleepovers at his place (his mother worked nights and she was a single mom), we talked about movie and TV shows that had impressed us....watched a few on TV together (and needless to say it was the action scenes that we liked most). I don't recall who instigated the first conversation, but it soon developed into a reenactment phase. Unfortunately, none of it lead to sex (we were just sixteen in the beginning), but I sure wanted it to, and looking back I believe he did, too. I was well-built at the time, but his belly was just plain gorgeous.....and the sight of it would nearly bring me to tears. Like Terry and Gutsy's Jackie, he liked to wear his jeans as low as possible on his hips, thereby exposing every inch of his belly. Whew! It kept me in a state of flux for sometime. Thankfully, he wasn't the least bit skittish about me touching his belly during our little role plays, and always preferred his "character" get shot right in his bellybutton. If I hadn't been so damned shy and scared, we probably would have had a lot more intimacy than we did. Regrets, I've had a few.
DeleteTeddy and I began playing around when we were 13-14, and there was nothing consciously sexual about it, but we definitely were exploring each other's shirtless bodies with our game-playing. By high school we had moved on and didn't see each other much anymore. But for 2 years or so we had a great time every few months. Aside from the play I recounted above, I remembered that the closest he came to looking really aroused in our play was a time when I had him on his back, with his body really stretched out, and I had my left hand on his chest, and with my right plunged my knife (fist) down as low as possible into his gut, just above his cock. He groaned and pushed his belly out, and I very, very slowly pulled the knife up through his guts, giving it an occasional twist. When I reached his navel I pushed my fist in as far as it would go, and he moaned appreciatively, tightening his belly and pushing it out against my fist, arching his back. Then I continued grinding the knife up through his belly through his six-pack, as his groans increased, until I reached his chest, stopping right between his nipples. He drew his hands in and clawed at his belly...I had slit his entire belly open from cock to sternum, ripping his guts completely open. As he groaned and clutched his belly, I drew the knife out, then plunged it hard into his heart, dropping my body on top of his, belly to belly. He shuddered and died a very orgasmic death. From the moment I had plunged my fist into his low gut and started pulling up, he instinctively understood what I was doing, and played along enthusiastically. When he recovered, it was my turn; we wrestled a bit, until he was in a sitting position, and he pulled me across his lap, and overhand plunged his "knife" (fist) very hard and deliberately into my belly at the navel, almost knocking the wind out of me. He repeated the stabs all over my belly and gut, which was stretched in an arched position over his legs, about 10 times, slowly. He finished me with a hard punchlike thrust in my lower guts just above my pants, making me almost sit up, then like I had done on him a stab in the center chest, between my tits. Like he had, I pushed my belly out, straining and shuddering, then "died". I'm sure I was quite aroused, but simply didn't understand it as a sexual thing.
DeleteHere's a picture of a guy who looks very much like Teddy as I remember him:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/5c/e8/b65ce8f5bddc513893a31280f7ee0653.jpg
Looking back on it, while I am sure Teddy wasn't gay, I have a feeling he would have really gotten into the gut-punching scene. He really got off on punching me in the belly, and being punched in his long lean lower guts. As I said above, he would encourage me to stab (punch) him in the guts until he started to bruise!
DeleteIf he looked lime that, Derek, no wonder you had many shootouts..;-)
DeleteIn my own case, my two buds "specialized" in different types of "getting it".
Jackie in his exotic way either as Indian or "Jap" died loud and dramatic. He liked his belly deaths to show him as a wild and "cowardly".
Chris, on the other hand, would be the stoic outlaw who'd get a slug thru the belly button and would stand there, grunting, thumbs tucked in "gun belt" waiting for me to finish killing the rest of his imaginary gang then come back to finish him..
The first guy I actually spent a lot of time discussing ideas with was a friend named Greg. We were both theatre nerds, so we were very into movies and discussing special effects. I remember we spent hours on the phone, discussing how we would shoot or stab the hunky jocks we had gym class with, as we knew well what their bodies looked like. I remember one Italian guy, Dave, who was our favorite target, he had big bulging pecs and a slightly bulging but muscular belly. Greg was the first guy I ever discussed scenes with using our terms, and he loved describing ramming a spear slowly through Dave's bellybutton into his guts, stabbing him with a dagger repeatedly into the curve of his low guts, or pumping bullets into his tits, then drilling his big belly and watching it quiver. One time Greg decided to surprise me and snuck into my apartment after school one day, while I was on the phone. I didn't notice him come in. I turned around and there he was smiling at me, and I felt something ram into my belly and then there was a bang and I flew back and hit the floor. I looked down in horror and saw a black hole in my shirt. Turns out he had borrowed a starter pistol and thought it would be funny to surprise me and shoot me in the gut right under my navel. He didn't realize that the blast would burn. It blew a hole through my shirt, and metal fragments sank into my flesh a good half-inch. I had a scar from that for years, and occasionally a tiny piece of copper would work its way out of my skin. He was very apologetic, but in truth it was very exciting, and I jerked off over the memory for years.
ReplyDeleteGood grief, Ashe. The cop in leather is — or was — just a perfect receptacle for all that lead.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you think so, Jim!
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